19 - Michael Tabman | Mighty Process Server

Full Transcript
0:00Michael Tabman:So on this particular case, I went in there and these very good attorneys really started coming at me, you know, yelling and screaming, and I'm waiting for the gulp factor. We really get nervous, and it never happened. And I walked out and we're leaving and we. And I said to my partner, I said, wow, you know, I never got that tense feeling in my throat. I'm surprised. I haven't really done that much testifying the last number of years. And. And he says, tabo, as we call him. He said, tabo. You know why? Cause you did your job and you told the truth, and that's all you have to do. That's my message in a very long winded story to you. Do your job.

0:40Intro:You're listening to Process Server Daily, the show where hustle meets strategy in the high stakes world of process serving. From elite pros to the new servers taking massive action, these are the voices of a rising industry.

0:54Mighty Mike:Hosted by the founder of 123legal serves Mighty Mike Reed.

1:00Intro:This is your backstage pass to building a profitable process serving empire. Let's get into it.

1:10Mighty Mike:Great. Michael, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got started in this industry.

1:13Michael Tabman:Okay. Well, I have a 27 year career in law enforcement. I was a police officer for three years, and then I was with the FBI for 24 years. Retired a little over 10 years ago. And actually, I didn't really have a business plan. I just kind of put it out there through a few things to see what came back. I was trying to sell some business services that I'd done involved with the FBI. More of an internal auditor. And I want to do more of that work. But I would sit with people, kind of discuss what I'm doing, and they would be staring at me, and they're looking, and I finished my speech. They go, you're FBI, right? And I say, yeah. They say, I got something I want you to do. So it's kind of like Michael Corleone, you know, I want to get out, but they keep pulling me back in. So I said, all right, obviously I need to stay, maintain the course. So I open secured asset protection, security consulting. I do a lot of pre employment screening, a lot of internal matters. My clients are corporations that 1 obviously do a lot of hiring, 2 have internal matters. Whether it's poor performance issues or theft, workplace violence is a big issue now. Training them, helping them write their policies. And then I do a lot with law firms, again, helping them put their case together. We do a little strategery and finding witnesses and Then sometimes I'll outsource my process, serving to have witnesses served, and then we'll get people interviewed and help them prepare reports.

2:37Mighty Mike:Well, I appreciate you outsourcing that.

2:38Michael Tabman:Well, you know, my age, I say, you know, I. Thinking back when I was a young cop, I used to drive around seven, eight hours, maybe just jump out of the car, chase someone down, make the arrest. Now I'm in my 60s, take me quite a while just to get out of the car. So I think, you know, man's got no his limitations.

2:55Mighty Mike:That's good stuff. So I'm just curious, Michael, what was your first job? Did you just. Did you go to school and then get the FBI thing right away?

3:04Michael Tabman:No, actually, I went to John Jay College of Criminal justice in New York City. And when I graduated, this would be in the late 70s. New York City was having a financial crisis. If you think back to 2008, 2009, nationally, New York City was going through that. The famous headline, I think it was the Daily News was president to New York City dropped dead, meaning they weren't getting federal bailout. So there are very few jobs going around. So I moved down to the Washington, D.C. area and just through some circumstance, I wound up in this place called Fairfax County, Virginia, and I landed a job with the highway construction department just as a trainee, which is pretty fascinating work. I really enjoyed it. And I said, hey, if something happens, I don't get into law enforcement. I'm going to stick with this. It was really a lot of fun. But one day I took a bus ride into Fairfax City, not knowing there was a city in the county. And I just stopped the first cop I see, and I said, hey, where's your police headquarters? And he points out to. It so happens it was Fairfax County. I walk in and I ask for an application. And the girl behind the desk says, well, look, you know the guy over there that's a recruiter, he's walking by, he's from New York. Maybe you want to go talk to him, because the accident is pretty obvious. So I go over to the guy, he's like, hey, yeah, bada bing, bada bing. We start talking, and next thing you said, look, I got a test coming up tomorrow. You missed the deadline, but just get in here, I'm gonna sneak you in. I like you, man. You know that New York thing going on. So I showed up, took the test. Few months later, when I'm on the Fairfax County Police Department.

4:33Mighty Mike:Wow, that's really cool. I'm glad I asked that question. That's not one of my normal ones, but I just had a feeling that with all the experience you had, you had an interesting start. That's really cool. So, Michael, we kind of go through the good, the bad, and the ugly. And I like to start with the ugly so we can end it on a positive note. Right?

4:50Michael Tabman:Right.

4:51Mighty Mike:What is your worst experience that you've had in your career and whichever one you would like to share.

4:58Michael Tabman:Oh, no, that's an easy one. And anyone who Googles me will probably see where I would fall on that one. I remember when I was a special agent in charge after long career in the FBI. I was giving a speech to a bunch of law enforcement leaders, chiefs of police. I was talking about management, and I said, you know, I don't really strive for popularity as a leader, and I always have trouble with leaders who did. That's all making decisions. I said, I always worry about how popular I am, but what I wouldn't accept, what would really bother me, if I was ever accused of a thought of being or doing something unethical. And then two weeks later, I'm facing charges of being unethical. There was an accusation against me. I was being accused of retaliation against an employee who I disciplined for insubordination. And he claimed to be a 911 whistleblower, which he wasn't. But anyway, that was just the political times. So the wrath of the FBI started coming out after me. And it was very painful to one minute be doing a job and the next minute to be accused of immoral conduct, especially someone who spent his career trying to exemplify ethical behavior. So that was kind of painful. Eventually they dropped it. The issues came out and they backed off. And the FBI didn't drop anything. I had a hearing scheduled before I retired, and they just backed off from it. But to have gone through all that, to have that accusation, that shadow hanging over you, that was very ugly. That was kind of painful.

6:25Mighty Mike:Yeah, those. Those kind of situations can be. And, you know, we can learn a lot from those situations, though. I'll tell you, whether, you know, whether it's in business or whether you're employed by someone else, you end up learning sometimes things the hardest way. What do you want? Server Nation? Michael, what do you want them to get from your story?

6:42Michael Tabman:Well, people might ask me, did you regret what you did or anything like that? And I say, no. I just wish the system had worked because I did everything right. I documented it, and I got the advice of legal counsel before I did anything. All the things you had to do to make it right. Yet it still backfired, at least at the time. So follow the rules. Follow your heart. Don't get goaded into doing something out of anger. You know, many of you guys are probably armed. I would say, be careful. Let your ego sit in your back pocket. I think about the incident in Florida now, where the guy gets pushed down and he takes out his gun and shoots. Maybe he won't have to answer that under stand your ground. And maybe I'm veering off your subject, but I looked at that, and I don't think that shooting was justified. But most of you are young guys and girls, kind of in a macho type of type A personality environment. Don't let that get the better of you. And the story I always think of telling that story is when I was a young officer getting the advice from the older cops, and they wanted us to carry our weapons off duty because he always had the authority. They said, except when you go out at night, you go to a bar. You may want to think about it for the very reasons we just discussed. Young. It was mostly men. We had some females, but not many back then. Young men, alpha males. You know, got that macho thing going on. You drink in, you're around women, someone may push you down, and your first instinct is going to be to protect that ego of yours. Next thing you know, you're in master trouble. Yeah.

8:13Mighty Mike:And you don't want to shoot somebody. You get in a situation where you end up having to pull that gun, you're trained to use it, and that's. That's a terrible situation. Especially in some kind of a bar situation.

8:24Michael Tabman:Yeah, exactly. So, you know, again, just going back to that story, though, it doesn't really seem to be a great analogy. Just follow the rules, right? You know, maintain your cool. And if you can't serve someone, if they're getting hostile, there's always tomorrow.

8:37Mighty Mike:That's right. That's good stuff. So, Michael, tell me, what is your greatest experience? Maybe your biggest win in the investigative space or biggest win in your career?

8:46Michael Tabman:The biggest win would have to be the case that put me on the map. When I was working narcotics in New York, I was fortunate to land on the squad. We worked out of the Queen's office, if you're familiar with New York City, called the Queens resident agency over in Jackson Heights. At the time, I was on the nypd, FBI drug task force, and we were targeting Colombian cocaine. This would be in the late 80s, early 90s. We didn't really have far to walk to work the cases and that experience. And this particular case I'm going to mention was the motivation behind my second novel, Bad Intent. That was about my years on that task force. Because we were running and gunning. We were doing everything, you know, wiretaps, informants, sneak a peek, search warrants that many people haven't even heard of, all the things that you hear about. And then we're doing raids two, three times a week. So we're very active, very busy squad. We were. We were kind of the big dogs in the FBI at the time. Everyone knew us, we had the big cases going on. So, you know, we walked around our chest puffed out, you know, like that, showing our feathers. So we're working the cases. And then this case landed in my lab. It was called Sawbuck. And it was a money laundering case, a drug, excuse me, drug, money laundering case that we got from the organized crime section. It's actually a squad I'd worked on when I was on oc and the guy was a small time mobster and he was supposedly laundering money for the cartel. And the organized crime squad couldn't make heads or tails of it. They said there's nothing there, we couldn't do it. So management got a little frustrated and handed over to the drug squad because they felt we might be a little more adept. Not because we're better agents, but just because of what we do. It's a different type of work, maybe required a different type of investigative approach than organized crime did. So my partner and I, a New York City detective, went out there, just beat the bushes, and we put together this humongous case, not on our own, but the help of the squad and other officers that after about a year or so, maybe a little more than a year, culminated in a nationwide takedown of hundreds of people. My main guy who was working the diamond district, was a money launderer, had gotten wind that something was up and he fled that evening to Switzerland. And I know in his mind I won't be extradited, but he was wrong. And we called Switzerland that night and the Swiss police were waiting for him at the airport, took him into custody and, you know, no short time was back in the United States. And I haven't checked on it, but he's probably still in jail having received 660 years as a sentence.

11:20Mighty Mike:Jeez, even if he gets half of that, he's going to be in there for 300 years. He's dead. That's a great story. I mean, being able to get in, I mean, all the experience I mean, we could probably talk for 10 hours just about the different, different situations you found yourself in. But that was a big win. You say it put you on the map. In your experience, like as a law enforcement officer, like if you get a big win like that, all of a sudden, is that what gets you promoted or.

11:49Michael Tabman:Well, they'll never admit that, but yes. The truth is, you know, the FBI, like other organizations, I can only speak to the FBI. A lot of politics there. So I was at that point I was looking to get promoted. And you have to get noticed. All right, people at headquarters will see you. At this case, you go to headquarters to make a presentation and meet your boss. As your name gets around, then there might be something to say. You know that guy tapping, he's all right. You know, he did that big case, think about him. So, yeah, there's a lot of politics, a lot of glad handed going around to get yourself promoted. A lot of game playing.

12:22Mighty Mike:That's who you know.

12:23Michael Tabman:Yeah. So you had to learn how to do it. And I got better on it as my years went on.

12:28Mighty Mike:Yeah, I can see that. With having your own show and everything. Yeah, you gotta be able to talk to people and, and put yourself out there and maybe take some risks every once in a while and calculated ones. So, Michael, tell me. That's awesome. Your greatest experience. What it tells me is like, get out there, get the experience you need for Server Nation as an audience. It might be kind of like, well, how do I go? And I do this? What do you want Server Nation to get from your greatest experience? What do you think they should take away from that?

12:59Michael Tabman:Well, again, looking at that, let me speak about another case. Then I put in perspective because right after that case, I wound up in this other case that kind of really solidified there my experience and that also I mentioned that case in my book because these were kind of landmark cases. Landmark in my career, not in history. We were working a case on, again, a suspected drug dealer, money launderer, but we had gotten his name or identified him through an undercover operation that was going on somewhere else. So we couldn't compromise the undercover operation. So we had to build what we call the parallel case. Just start with him and no information, and make a case out of that. So my partner and I, the same partner, as a matter of fact, went out there again, started beating the bushes and we put together this really good case. And then one night I was going home and again, you gotta understand New York City, it was a Friday night, it was late rush hour. Traffic, it's raining out. And I get a call from the surveillance team that they're on this guy who I was talking about, and he just went through the. So machination of meeting people in airport. Very complicated. Meeting guy here, meeting guy there, switching suitcases, switching cars, going separate ways. And he says, what do you want us to do? I said. He said, we only have enough to stay on one car. So I said, all right, you stay with car A. I'm going to get car B. By I, I meant the squad. So I got on the phone, and again, this is past closing time, but luckily, most of the squad was still hanging out. Got my partner on phone. I said, you're not going to believe this, but they got the guy. I'm trying to find him. He's coming out of LaGuardia Airport somewhere. Could you get guys down here? They scramble so fast. I couldn't believe the guy. This is in rush hour traffic in New York City. They get down there, they circle LaGuardia Airport, and one of the guys finds a car. I couldn't believe it. I said, you're kidding. So we stop the car and we pull him over, and we get his permission to search the car, but in a way that we knew that permission would never. It's not going to hold up in court. We knew that they. But if you're familiar with the Carroll Doctrine, which allows you to search a car under certain circumstances, we exercise that. There were two big suitcases in the car. They had this little tiny lock on them. And I wasn't sure. I said, I actually just took the lock and started twisting it, and the thing just broke off. Oh, that worked out. Opened it up, and there was 60 kilos of Coke in these two suitcases. We used that. The other team followed that other car up the Bronx. They did a surveillance on there. And then at that point, we said, all right, now we need to get a search warrant. We've used the Carroll Doctrine exception. So it took us all night, but we got a search warrant, went up to the Bronx, and we wound up finding a fugitive. Guns, drugs, you know, another 30 kilos of coke, a lot of money, and a fugitive who had a lot of backup years on him, and then some. Some weapons, and I think we even had, like, a few grenades. Once again, you have to think things out. You can't let emotions get the best of you. We had to think out there. All right? So when I got to court point, I was getting. When I got to court, the attorney started coming at me, you know, like you see on TV agent this, you, you, you. And they start yelling at you. And in the FBI, especially in narcotics, we didn't testify a whole lot. As a cop, I'd always testified traffic tickets, you arrest someone to fight and there's always, they always going to court. In narcotics, they very rarely went to court because by the time we had you, we had you on wire, on video, doing a hand to hand with an undercover agent. You know, we have your fingerprints on the money, on the drugs. And there wasn't a whole lot to go, so we didn't testify a lot. So on this particular case, I went in there and these very good attorneys really started coming at me, you know, yelling and screaming, and I'm waiting for the gulp factor. We really get nervous and it never happened. And I walked out and we're leaving and we. And I said to my partner, I said, wow, you know, I never got that tense feeling in my throat. I'm surprised. I haven't really done that much testifying list number of years. And he says, tabo, as we call him. He said, tabo. You know why? Because you did your job and you told the truth. And that's all you have to do. That's my message in a very long winded story, do your job and tell the truth.

17:07Mighty Mike:So, Michael, some ideas came to my mind as you were talking about some things that we have to ask. I have to ask, okay, first one is I heard an attorney told me something. You could tell me what you think about this because it relates to your story. Is he said when you testify in court, it's yes, no, and I don't know know.

17:26Michael Tabman:We've heard that too, and I agree with that. You know, one of the things that always heard you never say not to my knowledge. And I've played with that one a lot because sometimes you're just trying to clarify that you're not lying. But it may not be something you know. For example, if you ask me right now, is it raining outside? I don't know. I'm sitting in my basement, I don't know. But I would say not to my knowledge. Because when I came in 10 minutes ago, it wasn't raining. So I can say no, but I don't really know that for sure. That would be. So I could say I don't know, or I could say not to my knowledge. I don't hear it. It doesn't look like it is, but I can't say for sure. So I think we have to be a little flexible. I agree with the attorney? In principle, I do, yes. No, I don't know. One of the funny things that happened, matter of fact, on this last case, when I remember I was testifying, because I was on there for quite a while, a defense attorney asked me, what was Agent so and so thinking at that moment? And I said, what? I said, that's what I did. You want to laugh? I said, I don't know. You have to ask Agent so and so. And then the judge, who was a really good judge, well respected, said agent, meaning me. Answer the question. I said, you, Honor, I can't speak for Agent so and so. I don't know what he was thinking. He said, okay, and that was it. I think he just wanted. I guess he found my answer, maybe flippant, which I didn't mean it to be, but how can you ask me what someone else is thinking? So, yes. No, I don't know. I agree with that. Be careful of the little traps that attorneys set. You probably learned this, the silence trap, right after you testify. They said they're looking at you and they want to make you uncomfortable. Just sit there and stare back. Try not to let them lure you into an argument. If they insult you, don't insult back. Just let the prosecutor, whoever's representing your interest, jump in there. The judge should jump in there. Don't get lured into that. Don't get lured into the multiple questions. Didn't you serve my client on Monday when it was raining at 9pm and you came around the back door and they said, no, go here. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Which question are you asking? One at a time. Was it Monday? Yes. Was it 9pm no. Was it raining? Yes. Was it the back door? No. One question at a time. Because the job is to confuse you, have you hurt your credibility. So be very careful that. Ask me one question, I'll answer one question. And again, if you don't know, you don't know. Don't make it up. You know, don't try to fluff it. Just tell the truth. And you know what? If something goes wrong? Something goes wrong a lot better than you being charged with lying under oath, losing your license, or just losing your own reputation.

19:54Mighty Mike:Yeah, Michael, that's good stuff. I had a situation where someone was. I posted all other occupants for an eviction on the. On the property. And then I circled around the house trying to get this lady to come out of the house, knocked on the door, knocked on the back door, and then I waited nearby for almost 30 minutes. And then. And she came out to get in her car and I drove up and served her. Well, counsel wanted, saw the two different, the time differences and wanted to just, you know, land based me. They're like, oh, it's these different times, you must be lying and why would you post it? And it's like, and they didn't know about the civil code for prejudgments. And so I be just being a lowly process server. I'm like, well you know section code 416 or 41546 says I have to pose for all other occupants. And the attorney just kind of like no further questions.

20:41Michael Tabman:So that was kind of right.

20:43Mighty Mike:Yeah, that was good. So knowing your stuff, especially being able to just spit it out and know it, that's a big deal. And then the second question I have for you, let me just, if I

20:52Michael Tabman:may, if I may just finish up on your last question is and sometimes things don't make, don't add up. And for example, when I was working we didn't have the electronics that we have now. Everything's handwritten. So they may look at the log, say, agent, you testified you did this at 7, but your partner said that he was there at 7, 10. How do you explain that? I can't. But I'm saying to you is, what I remember is I did this at 7pm and sometimes things just don't make sense and maybe two times don't work out. Don't try to answer it if you don't know, I can't explain it. But I maintain what I'm saying to you right now under oath.

21:27Mighty Mike:That's good, that's some serious value. So my other question was, and I know you were in the FBI, but maybe you can help Server Nation understand this. I recently had a case where I went to somebody's house and they called the police. And normally what I do is I say yeah, please call the police. And then they show up and I'm pretty lucky. Most of the time the police will take my papers, go to the door and go are you so and so. Okay, well here, here's your. He was trying to give you your papers. But often there's many times a few people on my show have talked about how police have actually arrested them. One guy had a night in jail, some crate. What is the, what would you say if there was like top three tips, you know, or what are your, what are, what's your feedback on that? How to deal with an officer. What it, what's in their brain coming from someone who's been in law enforcement? How should we communicate with them right away.

22:20Michael Tabman:Interesting, because I'm thinking back, you know, three years as a cop. I don't remember ever coming across a process server, a bounty hunter, anything like that. I don't remember even having interact with the PI So I never had that personal experience. But as I tell people all the time, you're dealing with cops, even especially the FBI, but dealing with cops, you're talking some very big egos, all right? And they don't like people coming around doing what they might perceive as police work. So be very respectful. You don't have to be obsequious, but be respectful. Yes, sir. No, sir. Yes, ma'. Am. No, ma'. Am. And just again, don't be cute with them. Tell them what you're doing, and in a nice way. If they don't, they may not understand the law. I don't think as a cop, if I ran into a process server or bounty under, I would have understood what the law allows them to do. I don't remember again having learned that or being involved in that. So they may not understand what your job is. Just be very spectacular. Say, officer, this is what happens from the court. I am licensed, blah, blah, blah. Don't try to go, you know, macho and macho with these guys. Hey, step aside, office. You're in my way. You're not going to win. Whether you're right or wrong. Just like, don't argue a traffic ticket with a cop on the street. Just accept it and go and you'll have your day in court. So be patient with them, be polite with them, don't try to outmaneuver them, and just explain what you're doing. If they give you a hard time, do not wind up getting arrested. Leave and come back tomorrow. Or in a nice way, go to the police station, ask to speak with the sergeant, explain what you were doing, that you had this issue with the officer. You're not trying to make a complaint, or maybe you are, that's up to you. But I tend try not to go to official complaints. I just like to resolve things and say, maybe the officer didn't understand. I was wondering if I can speak with you, explain what my authority is, explain what my responsibilities, and maybe get you guys to work with me rather than me being, you know, problem to you.

24:15Mighty Mike:That's awesome. That's good stuff. Michael, tell me, what is the. What are you working on right now that has you most excited?

24:22Michael Tabman:Right now? I'm doing work on the crimes and times that has me the most excited. I've Got. I got with my tech guy who's kind of my promoter and everything else. And just yesterday, we're talking about expanding the scope of crimes and times, trying to get more into some true crime that's occurring now, maybe traveling to the scene of crimes and trying to do a little more in depth, a little more of what a real TV show might be doing. Because we find that while people like our political discussions, such as about Manafort and things that go on the FBI, the Deep State, those got good reviews. People really do like to hear when we go after true crime, because they feel most of their TV involvement with that is from commentators who are news people, reporters, and not from people with my experience. So they like to kind of hear my experience more than just as a, you know, someone who's on there for two seconds as a commentator. They feel we get into much more depth. So, again, give the audience what they want. So they seem to be asking for more true crime. Have me more involved in investigations that are going on. So we're gonna see if we can't expand more to that. So I'm kind of excited about where we're hoping to go come September.

25:27Mighty Mike:Well, and, you know, with the. With the change in social media, you. You know, you're right on. You're right on point. I mean, people want to hear it. They want. Nowadays, they say people are looking at Facebook Live to get their information, or Facebook. You know, they're doing their shopping on the Facebook marketplace. I mean, we're entering a whole new generation. So if you. If my phone pops up, Michael Tabman just went live. I'm gonna look at it because I want to see what's going on. What are you investigating? You know, and maybe. Maybe you're at a crime scene where you're getting ready to interview somebody after the crime or whatever. And, you know, I'm with you on that. And definitely going to subscribe to your YouTube channel, if I haven't already. Michael, what are the books that you have out? Just so I can list them on my show notes.

26:12Michael Tabman:Okay, I have three books. And what's interesting, I tell people that I wrote my first two books in six months, and people say, oh, they think I'm trying to boast. But as I said, there's a catch to that. And there is. I just retired. And at the same time I retired, I had surgery on both my feet. So I'm sitting around, you know, in a boot and crutches. So you talk about the ultimate having nothing to do and nowhere to go. I was living that. So just really, I started writing something. It was just to be cathartic, literally. I almost failed creative writing in high school. And one of the things. Here's another story I'll tell you, getting to that. When I was in the police department, my sergeants loved me to write their reports. I was very pithy, short, to the point. Just the facts, ma'.

26:56Mighty Mike:Am.

26:56Michael Tabman:They love that. When I got in the FBI, one of my first assignments was on a white collar crime case. And during that, we had to write this thing called, I can't remember what's called a prosecutorial report. And it was this huge, huge report. Part of it actually was to document what they said was unproductive investigation. And all of us felt like saying, yeah, writing this report is unproductive investigation. It was this crazy thing. But it went to doj. It went to any other agency that might have an involvement, like Health and Human Services. I just called them, went to headquarters. So it had to really be well written. So I write my first one, and my boss is in the office. He calls me and says, hey, Tab, and this was a great police report. Say thanks. He says, no, it sucks. I said what you just said, it's a great police report. He goes, yeah, it is for you being a cop. But we're the FBI. We're into creative writing. Those were the exact words. We're into fluffy. And I'm thinking, oh, no, I'm really gonna have a problem now if we're talking creative writing. And I did for many years, even my performance reviews and my supporters would come back. Now we need more detail. And I would learn. So I learned how to just write the same thing over and over again, just in different words, and pass it through. They just, like, fluff. So I was never a great creative writer. So my first book called Walking the Corporate Beat is a lessons learned book. It's nonfiction lesson learned. And I take experiences from my first day on patrol, when an arrest I made, to my last day in the FBI and the lessons I learned there and how we could learn business and life lessons from that. And I explore sort of. I'm sort of an armchair social psychologist, and I look at thought processes very often and personalities. And I look back at all those issues. Most of them were screw ups, some good things, but mostly screw ups. And I discuss what went wrong and the lesson we can learn and apply that to your business operations or life or more business operations, to have a more effective and efficient operation. And it comes down to mostly the thought processes. And then how those thought processes translate into business processes. Now, the irony of that book is, again, I wrote it just to be cathartic. Then I hooked up with the media. The first time a reporter called me. We got together, and then we started working together. And he said, you know, you really need to get that book out there. I said, yeah, I don't know. I'm very honest in the book. If you read, I criticize myself. I criticize others. Not by name, but just stories. He said, look, Michael, just get it out there. You need to have a calling card. So I put it out there. I got out there. I got very fortunate. Two CEOs of major corporations liked the book, and they gave me endorsements. They were the CEO of Dr. Pepper, the founder of the Rainforest Cafe. And then I wound up doing some consulting for one of them based on the books. I got very lucky. But then we did some book signings and we sold out. And so I texted this guy and I said, hey, we sold out. And he writes back to me, says, I gotta be honest with you, Tabman. I didn't expect you to sell any books. I just wanted you to get the book out there. So I said, well, thanks for telling me that now. So I wrote that book. That gave me a little confidence. So I wrote a book called Midnight Sin that was based on my years as a young cop. Trans. Excuse me. Transforming, really, I was gonna say, but moving from patrol into plain clothes, where I worked on the serial rape case. And it's about a young cop. It's not autobiographical, but obviously I use my own motivations, and it just kind of shows this cop again transform into a more mature police officer, learning how to play the games that you and I are talking about, understand the difference in his responsibility now and how to balance his personal life versus professional life and his image of himself as a police officer. And that one got off to a fairly good start. One of the producers from Law and Order, Peter Giuliani, gave me a quote for that book. So that kind of helped it get off to a good start. And then another publisher called me after Midnight Sin went out and asked if I would write a novel for him. So I did, and I decided to write it about, like I said before, my years on the NYPD FBI drug task force. And it was kind of going to center around the FBI agent. Again, not being autobiographical, but based on my experience as I'm writing, I get a call from one of my old partners, an NYPD detective who I worked organized crime with. And he called me up hey, Mikey, he says, how come you didn't name your character after me? And you know, talking about midnight sin, what's the matter with me? Couldn't use me. I said, hey, you know, I'm writing a novel now and it's going to have a New York City detective. Do you want me to name him after you? Well, yeah, you know, I'm not going to tell you the exact words he used, but you know what he said, right? Absolutely. Bland, lootly. And I said, okay. So I named it after him. And what happened was the whole book changed because he's a very, very colorful character, right? He's a big guy. He's a New York City detective. You know, I've been around, got tons of experience. He came out to my retirement. He flew in from New York City, came to my retirement party in Kansas City. He walked in and like everything turned and he looked like he just stepped off the set of the Sopranos. And he comes in and word starts going around and I have all police chiefs there and heads of law enforcement agencies and word's going around there's a New York City detective here. There was a line to go talk to this guy. You know, that's just the aura of him. I had a guy from the CIA, he didn't get half the attention the New York State detective got. So he's such a colorful guy that my book really started focused on him and he became the star of the show. And it was just really about working this case, but more about our relationship that is now been more than 30 years and we really haven't lived in the same city for many years. But we still get together once a year. We still talk to each other just from the bond of having worked together really for a short period of time.

32:28Mighty Mike:That is so cool, Michael. I'm so honored to hear like the process. You know, a lot of times when I ask people about the different books that they've written, they say something like, yeah, this name, this name, this name. And you really had a good little synopsis there of like your, of how they came to be and stuff like that. And I'm not a super big reader. Like I'm writing books and I'm blogging and you know, the online Internet marketing and doing all this stuff and. But, but the reading of. I'm actually intrigued. I'm gonna, I'm probably gonna have a brother in law who just became an officer in Stockton pd and so I think I might buy your books for him.

33:02Michael Tabman:Great, thank you. I'll never Turn that down. Writing my books, believe me, I didn't quit my day job, so.

33:09Mighty Mike:Right, right. And producing content just for my listeners. You know, when you go out there and you're doing all this stuff during the day, when you produce a book or a course or anything online, it's gonna keep working for you. And so you just keep doing your day job and have something on the site. You know, it creates a nice little supplemental income, especially if you put yourself out there. And so that's really cool, Michael. I appreciate the feedback on that. You guys can go to ProcessReverDaily.com podcast and see Michael show notes for links that are going to go directly to his books to be able to purchase them. Michael, tell me, what is your favorite? What episode should Server Nation go watch first of Crimes and Times.

33:53Michael Tabman:That's a good one. One I like. And unfortunately, we had a little bit of a technical issue there. The volume on my mic was kind of low. But one I like was undercover. I have two undercover ones. One was with the guy who infiltrated Hell's Angels. That one everyone would like. Very popular. He also does movies, so he's well known. But I have one with a guy named. We call him Big Jack. He and I worked together for seven years on the drug task force. He was our star on the COVID agent. And I had him on talking about not just the work he did for us, but he infiltrated the mob, he infiltrated corrupt cops. He was just a natural. And he was this guy about 6 foot 4, and I'm not exaggerating, close to 400 pounds, you know, obviously out of shape, but this huge guy. So no one ever made him for a cop just because of his appearance. Everyone thinks of cops being buff and shape. So when we'd arrest people and he'd show them the badge, they're like, you're kidding me. But the reason I want to do that is because he and I have such a history together, and he really gives a good understanding of what it takes to be an undercover agent. It's not what you see on television. You don't just show up and act a certain way and they accept you and you make a drug deal. It doesn't work that way. You'll get yourself killed if you try doing stuff like that. So, again, I will warn. Volume on my side is a little bit hard to hear, but turn it up. You can hear it. But that's a really good indication of the kind of commitment it takes to be a good undercover agent. It takes a personality and Obviously a lot of training and a commitment to it. He's a very interesting guy, good friend of mine. So again, I just enjoyed having him on the show. So I just go to that one with Big Jack Garcia. Hey, quick break from the episode to tell you about something that's changing the game for process servers across the country. It's called Mighty Process Servers. And yeah, you can join absolutely free inside.

35:44Mighty Mike:You'll get full access to every course,

35:46Michael Tabman:every download, and the educational tools that we use to help process servers build profitable companies. We meet every Tuesday at 1pm Eastern

35:55Mighty Mike:for our live Mighty Mastermind call.

35:58Michael Tabman:Come join the conversation. You can connect with other professionals, post on the discussion board, direct message members,

36:07Mighty Mike:and become part of one of the most engaged communities for process servers. Don't wait. Go to mightyprocess server.com and join today. Those who get verified, get listed and

36:17Michael Tabman:start bidding on jobs same day. Now let's get back to the show.

36:28Mighty Mike:Okay, welcome back to the show. Michael, what is your favorite skip trace tactic? How do you find folks?

36:33Michael Tabman:I don't do a whole lot of that in my work, but I think the best way, go to the databases. Save yourself a lot of time. It might be more fun to go out there and interview people and try to follow people, but given today's technology, you're gonna find them a lot faster and a lot cleaner and a lot cheaper. Go to your databases if you can, as your number one option.

36:53Mighty Mike:Michael, how'd you find people back in the day?

36:55Michael Tabman:We follow someone else. That's how we did it. We used antiquated techniques. Pen register, maybe. We'd sometimes try to tap into someone's beeper. It wasn't a pager with digital stuff. It was just a tone that went off when it went digital. That was major for us, that technology back then. So we try to clone intercept communications, but when you work narcotics, you just follow somebody day in and day out.

37:20Mighty Mike:That's cool. That's cool. Michael, what is your favorite tool for defense?

37:23Michael Tabman:Well, these days my favorite defense is to stay away from trouble at this stage of life. But going back to when I was a police officer, because that's generally when I would find myself in fights fairly often as a cop. Always try to talk your way out of it if you can. Especially in your business. You don't know how you'll be perceived. You may think you're doing the right thing, you're standing your ground or exercising authority, but you don't know how that will be perceived by an officer. A court of the law Best thing to do is avoid it. Talk your way out of it. Try to get cooperation. Not suggesting you shouldn't defend yourself or someone else. But if you can avoid it, I'd avoid it. But when I was an officer, other than talking, I didn't really count on many tools because we didn't have many. Again, the gun was the last option. And the only tool we carried mostly was the baton. And that was kind of awkward. And you didn't want to be seen swinging the baton, even though sometimes you have to. But it always looked very aggressive. But we used a coup baton. Are you familiar with that?

38:20Mighty Mike:No, I don't carry any batons. What is that, like a short one?

38:23Michael Tabman:Yes, it's a very, very small one. Only a few inches long, very hard plastic. And we use it for pain compliance. So you place on certain spots, like the wrist and apply pressure. And if we have time. One quick story I'll tell you is we use it often to try to get people out of the car, to arrest them. One time I couldn't get a guy out of the car because the guy is holding onto the steering wheel. And so my partner walked over and he and I trained a lot on the days off on techniques and self defense. And he took out his kubaton and I placed my hands around his head in a method he and I had practiced. And we did it at the same time. He gave himself a signal. He applied the pressure, I applied the head movement. And this guy came flying out of the window. Nothing I ever expected. I started backing all the way up. Luckily I was able to turn him around and get him on the ground first. But the right procedure and it worked beyond our wildest imagination. He just came right through this window. I don't know how he fit. So mostly pain compliance. But we try to stay away from big things and certainly lethal force. Last occupant.

39:24Mighty Mike:Good stuff. Good stuff. Michael, what book would you recommend other than your own?

39:28Michael Tabman:Right. You know, if you like police stuff. And I go, remember, I'm older than most of you guys. I can't help but not think of Joseph Wambaugh. He was sort of the seminal writer. You know, the police novel, Police Detective. So the Choir Boys, the Onion Field. Those are books I think about having read when I was a young cop. I look at that again. It started the movement, you know, I think about the TV shows now that are out there. They're just so unrealistic. It's beyond to me, just sort of the license of entertainment. So I stay away from modern Stuff because it just, to me, gets silly. So I'm going to recommend Joseph Wampaughd's books for people who want to sort of read the beginning of the police novel.

40:09Mighty Mike:That's awesome. I'm actually going to link that book as well. Michael, this next question gets a lot of my guests, but consider you're just starting your business. Let's say you're starting your asset protection business. How would you build it up to the one it is today? So that's what this question is referring to. What would you do if you woke up tomorrow with all the same skills and knowledge, but you didn't know anybody and only had $100, a smartphone and a car? How would you regrow your business?

40:38Michael Tabman:That's a tough one, because most of us, when we start a business in retirement, we do with the plan of relying upon our reputation and rely upon the contacts we made. So when I retired, people knew me, they knew who I was. I was able to get some contacts and get some business. But having said that, I will tell you this. My biggest bonus that came about one night. It was actually a Friday night. It was my youngest son's bar mitzvah, and it's Friday night at the temple, and that's open to the entire congregation. It's not a private party. And we're sitting around, I'm just talking to some guy happens to be standing next to me, and he says something, and I talked to him and we get this long conversation. He says, wow, that's really fascinating what you're trying to do, because I just was putting. I didn't even really don't think about even license my business. I was just kind of feeling it out. And he said, that's great. I want to introduce you to somebody. And he introduced me to somebody who then introduced me to somebody. And I made speeches at the groups. And that really got my business started. It was built upon, again, they knew people who knew me, but that was where. So schmooze, okay, that's my thing. Schmooze. Go out there, get yourself a nice professional business card. Get yourself a nice website. You know, you have to have one. Even though no one visits my website, it's all word of mouth. I still pay someone or maintain it. It look nice, just in case, gives you credibility. Give free speeches, offer to speak at groups, come up with an interesting topic, count on your experience. Get yourself out there, get your name out there, be personable, interact with people, Try to get yourself on television, which is hard to do if you don't have any experience because they want someone as a name. But try to get yourself interviewed, contribute to a magazine, write an article, write an editorial and just talk to people and get your name out there and be patient. It takes a little time to get traction. But whatever you do, what I don't suggest, you know, don't go into business under leverage. Don't borrow a lot of money and be waiting, you know, waiting for it to come because you can wind up in a world of hurt paying back that money. I started with my computer and a phone and word of mouth and I'll just give one example. When I started doing my background screening business. I won't mention the company, but they got on there and they said, we need a minimum amount of work for you to go on. I said, I can't promise you that because I'm just starting. I don't have any clients right now, but I need to have you set up. And I was able to negotiate with them where they said, okay, we'll do that. No minimum if you promise that you will attend our training seminars online and that we need to see some growth month after month. I said, you got it. So they gave me about 60 days and I never had again to that minimum with them because within that time I was able to get clients. But again, I did go around to people I knew and people who were able to introduce me. So I wasn't really operating totally in the cold.

43:24Mighty Mike:Yeah, that's really cool. Contacts. I always say, and I'm not the one who said it is a quote, but that your net work is your net worth equals your net worth.

43:33Michael Tabman:I agree and I just want to stress on that, you know, don't get into these long term contracts. We have minimums. Be very wary of those contracts. You should be able to negotiate around them because you're going to wind up really struggling when those bills come in and you don't have business coming in yet.

43:47Mighty Mike:Yeah, those minimum contracts, yeah, that becomes very difficult. So Michael, tell me what is the greatest advice you've ever received?

43:56Michael Tabman:Okay, this is a good one. And I'm surprised I thought it so quickly. I was graduating John Jay College and a friend of, I think my parents was a retiring New York City police executive, very high up that don't remember, but he agreed to meet with me and he was embarking on my career in law enforcement. We just talk about things. He says, son, I want you to remember this. Nobody cares about you except your mother. All right? Very hard advice, but I really took that to heart. And keep that in mind. No one really cares about you when you're out there. You have friends, you have bosses who like you. Everyone's going to put themselves first. You lead that charge against something, next thing you know, you're standing alone. And I mentioned a lot about that in my first book about that. I'm right behind you and they never are. So don't count on people doing what they say. Hopefully they will. But no one cares about you except your mother is the best advice I could give. And that comes from having gotten that Advice probably almost 40 years ago.

44:53Mighty Mike:I love that one. That's so different, but it's so true. That's crazy. I got your back and then you turn around and where'd he go?

45:03Michael Tabman:Yeah, that's right. You'll see that happen a lot in your career.

45:06Mighty Mike:Awesome. Well, the last thing I have here is what is the best way that we can connect with you? How can Server Nation keep up with Michael Tabman?

45:16Michael Tabman:Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I'm very active on social media, both personally, professionally. On Facebook. Michael Tabman. I enjoy. I really enjoy. I know a lot of people bad mouth Facebook and they talk about the dangers. It's dangerous if you're stupid. Okay. Just don't put stupid things out there. I'm kind of careful about that. I share what I'm doing, but I've got backup plans to make sure I'm not putting anything at risk when I'm doing it. But I share. And I have reconnected with old friends and made new friends. So I am very active. I'm on Facebook. Michael Tabman, Crimes and Times. Michael Tabman, Crimes and times is on YouTube. I would ask everyone to go become a subscriber. That helps us in trying to expand that platform. Right now we're doing reruns until around September. I'm just off for the summer doing other things, as most of us are. So we'll start again. So Crimes and Times Facebook. I'm on LinkedIn as well, and all my information is out there. How to reach me by email, telephone. I'm easy to find. I'll always entertain a question or a phone call. And on Facebook, I'm in that group of process servers. I think you're in that as well. You guys have an awesome, awesome for me, I mean that. I'm not saying. I think you know why I'm trying to. I have another business, DOT compliance. I need. Process servers have helped me establish something I'm trying to do throughout the country. You guys been so helpful and patient. Just taking me almost a year to put this plan together and you guys are all waiting and helping me. So I owe you guys, you know, a lot of thank yous. So you guys are terrific. So please stay in touch with me. Anything I can do to help. I'm willing to return all the favors you guys have done for me.

46:48Mighty Mike:Well, I tell you, Michael, there's a couple groups on there. The Server Nation is kind of my following and that's one of the groups. And then there's the process server nationwide connection group, which I'm. Which Dan Davidson is over. And I got to tell you, both, all the people, pretty much the same people in all these groups and they're just so helpful. Any new servers that come on and have different challenges, they're just real quick to come back. And I've kind of been humbled because I thought it was going to be a group of a bunch of tough guys. You know, I'm coming on there with my shades and you know, but it was actually just so many cool people. And actually yesterday we had a call. I started a blog, Mastermind. And so I got six people on there and they're coming from all different areas of talking about. And so we're going to do this mastermind once a month and they're each going to post a blog to the Server Nation directory that I have. And the whole idea is to drive traffic there and to be able to get attorneys to find the guys in the local areas rather than use the big contracting contract company. So.

47:47Michael Tabman:Right.

47:47Mighty Mike:That's really cool. Yeah, we're doing big things, man. I'm really excited that I was able to make the connection with you. When I saw that you had scheduled, I was super excited. I was like, let's get it done.

47:59Michael Tabman:Yeah. Thank you very much. Thanks for your patience. I know I was a little hard to nail down there. It was just summertime and stuff. But thank you for your patience getting me on.

48:06Mighty Mike:Michael, I want to personally thank you for being on the show. I've been impressed with everything you have going on from the Crimes and Times TV show, from the books that I'm about to buy, going to personally go to your YouTube channel and subscribe to the show today. Thank you and just thank you.

48:22Michael Tabman:Thank you, buddy. This was fun. I really appreciate it.

48:25Mighty Mike:That's a wrap on another episode of

48:27Michael Tabman:Process Server Daily where the legal support industry levels up. Want to grow your process serving business

48:34Mighty Mike:with the best marketing tools, the most

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48:51Outro:From the field to the courtroom.

48:54Michael Tabman:This is Process Server Daily.

48:56Outro:Until next time.

48:57Outro:Stay safe out there and live mighty.

19 - Michael Tabman | Mighty Process Server

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